another middle of the night question....

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Permalink Reply by Rebekah Spicuglia on July 3, 2009 at 8:27am

Amy, just want to say I'm sorry to hear about the rude texting and that it made you feel diminished in any way. Those situations are so frustrating, especially with no real opportunity to raise the issue in a way that doesn't put us in uncomfortable positions. Emailing/texting in front of people is so common now. Sometimes it is urgent, sometimes I think it's a nervous tic, but really so many people have no manners when it comes to their gadgets (as we know from our commutes to work -- iPods so loud we are forced to bring earplugs or an iPod of our own!). *sigh* I wish I had more than empathy to offer.

But you are on to something!! Your raising of the power dynamics is a very important point. For instance, an employer might check her email on her computer or send text messages to her friends on her iPhone while you & I are sitting in front of her discussing a project, but we are not likely to do that to her.

XoRebekah

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Permalink Reply by Amy Ferris on July 3, 2009 at 8:32am

oh thank you. yeah you're right, it is a power dynamic. ad it is important. i remember a few years ago, i was in a meeting and the executive was emailing, and i thought to myself, would she do this if her boss was here? i doubt it. do you think it's also a control thing?
too many gadgets.
and to think i thought call waiting was rude...
xoxox

Rebekah said:

Amy, just want to say I'm sorry to hear about the rude texting and that it made you feel diminished in any way. Those situations are so frustrating, especially with no real opportunity to raise the issue in a way that doesn't put us in uncomfortable positions. Emailing/texting in front of people is so common now. Sometimes it is urgent, sometimes I think it's a nervous tic, but really so many people have no manners when it comes to their gadgets (as we know from our commutes to work -- iPods so loud we are forced to bring earplugs or an iPod of our own!). *sigh* I wish I had more than empathy to offer.

But you are on to something!! Your raising of the power dynamics is a very important point. For instance, an employer might check her email on her computer or send text messages to her friends on her iPhone while you & I are sitting in front of her discussing a project, but we are not likely to do that to her.

XoRebekah

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Permalink Reply by Daphne Uviller on July 6, 2009 at 11:20am

Two weeks ago, on June 21, there was a piece in the NYT on just this subject, though in offices, not at lunch: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/us/22smartphones.html?_r=1
Etiquette differs depending on the situation, but in short: your companion was rude, and I think that ultimately, those who manage not to text while dining or speaking to others will prove themselves to be the coolest trendsetters and business leaders of all. You should have gotten up and left her alone at the table with her little machine.

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Permalink Reply by Amy Ferris on July 6, 2009 at 11:32am

yep. i should have gotten up and left her alone with her little machine. next time i most certainly will. and i will check out the NYT piece.

Daphne Uviller said:

Two weeks ago, on June 21, there was a piece in the NYT on just this subject, though in offices, not at lunch: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/us/22smartphones.html?_r=1
Etiquette differs depending on the situation, but in short: your companion was rude, and I think that ultimately, those who manage not to text while dining or speaking to others will prove themselves to be the coolest trendsetters and business leaders of all. You should have gotten up and left her alone at the table with her little machine.

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Permalink Reply by Amy Ferris on July 6, 2009 at 11:35am

just read the NYT piece. thanks a million!

Amy Ferris said:

yep. i should have gotten up and left her alone with her little machine. next time i most certainly will. and i will check out the NYT piece.

Daphne Uviller said:

Two weeks ago, on June 21, there was a piece in the NYT on just this subject, though in offices, not at lunch: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/22/us/22smartphones.html?_r=1
Etiquette differs depending on the situation, but in short: your companion was rude, and I think that ultimately, those who manage not to text while dining or speaking to others will prove themselves to be the coolest trendsetters and business leaders of all. You should have gotten up and left her alone at the table with her little machine.

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Permalink Reply by Emily Anderson on July 7, 2009 at 10:20am

I agree that this was rude, and I am sorry if you felt diminished by this other woman's actions. You mentioned power dynamics, and control, and I think those play into situations like this, but another thing I've noticed is that a lot of people I know seem to "engage" with their phones/PDAs/etc as a way of feeling important and needed. We all like to feel indispensable, like we're so important that it's vital we can be reached at any time of day or night; interacting with our machines in public says this to others (in my observations). Maybe you should feel a bit sorry for your lunch partner if she needed to flaunt this in order to bolster her own sense of worth...

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Permalink Reply by Amy Ferris on July 7, 2009 at 2:12pm

i have to say so much shit has been bubbling up to the surface for me recently - all various emotions & feelings - i'm not sure if it's because i have a book coming out soon, and with that, i've exposed and opened myself wide, but it feels very connected. feeling invisible, feeling insignificant... and no accident that my mom recently passed away, and coupled with that loss is also the dissolution of my relationship with my brother ... there's much here, and the rude texting is a piece within the whole, and something i really want to explore and write about.

Emily Anderson said:

I agree that this was rude, and I am sorry if you felt diminished by this other woman's actions. You mentioned power dynamics, and control, and I think those play into situations like this, but another thing I've noticed is that a lot of people I know seem to "engage" with their phones/PDAs/etc as a way of feeling important and needed. We all like to feel indispensable, like we're so important that it's vital we can be reached at any time of day or night; interacting with our machines in public says this to others (in my observations). Maybe you should feel a bit sorry for your lunch partner if she needed to flaunt this in order to bolster her own sense of worth...

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Permalink Reply by Robyn Su Miller on August 3, 2009 at 12:08pm

Amy, I'm sorry to hear about your losses. Yes, such losses definitely open us up to wanting to make bigger changes, and having less patience for the bs of the world.

I love this topic. As a performance poet I often pretend to be on a earpiece phone myself and mock those yakking on theirs, for instance, in a public toilet stall. I don't recommend this tactic, to be sure. It works for me, but the targets don't appreciate the humor.

If you intend to write more about this, and I wish you would, give a title to your pending article or book and politely say, "Oh this is perfect! I'm writing a piece called (title) about the etiquette of using electronic gadgets in the presence of others! Do you mind answering a few questions?" Being old school I'd whip out a pen and paper and write volumes of notes in it. I'd continue asking questions even if ignored and would mutter aloud notes as I wrote, "...completely absorbed...ignored my questions..."

But of course the most important aspect of this incident is the pecking order that one would hope would not emerge in a community of women. I'm glad you address this. As irritating as those loud ipods are, that problem of modern life is not significant in light of the importance of building a new model of community.


Amy Ferris said:

i have to say so much shit has been bubbling up to the surface for me recently - all various emotions & feelings - i'm not sure if it's because i have a book coming out soon, and with that, i've exposed and opened myself wide, but it feels very connected. feeling invisible, feeling insignificant... and no accident that my mom recently passed away, and coupled with that loss is also the dissolution of my relationship with my brother ... there's much here, and the rude texting is a piece within the whole, and something i really want to explore and write about.

Emily Anderson said:

I agree that this was rude, and I am sorry if you felt diminished by this other woman's actions. You mentioned power dynamics, and control, and I think those play into situations like this, but another thing I've noticed is that a lot of people I know seem to "engage" with their phones/PDAs/etc as a way of feeling important and needed. We all like to feel indispensable, like we're so important that it's vital we can be reached at any time of day or night; interacting with our machines in public says this to others (in my observations). Maybe you should feel a bit sorry for your lunch partner if she needed to flaunt this in order to bolster her own sense of worth...

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Permalink Reply by Alice Rene on August 3, 2009 at 12:27pm

It's no okay! It's rude! I guess we should be happy they're not driving a car. Then it becomes dangerous! You hit the button. It's one of my pet peeves.
Alice
http://alicerene.com

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Permalink Reply by Casey D.D. Nicholas on August 3, 2009 at 12:47pm

Diminished is a fine word choice... however, who's more diminished? She is, no doubt. Face-to-face is leaving us, sadly. How I wish you could have sent her a text... "I'm having lunch with the most self-involved woman...!"

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Permalink Reply by Amy Ferris on August 3, 2009 at 1:14pm

casey:
perfect timing for your response.
so much love.

Casey D.D. Nicholas said:

Diminished is a fine word choice... however, who's more diminished? She is, no doubt. Face-to-face is leaving us, sadly. How I wish you could have sent her a text... "I'm having lunch with the most self-involved woman...!"

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Permalink Reply by Nina Weber on August 4, 2009 at 6:32am

I worked as editor on a book of manners last year. It is from a great and also experienced teacher of manners (in Germany) who always gets asked about the "new manners" for the "new digital age" and the like. And although she can give detailed advice that is very up-to-date, she also says that the "new gadgets" and "new rules" are most often used as a cloak for something we all know is rude. We do not answer the phone while having lunch with someone. We do not text or write emails.
And if we say: "but there was this important thing on my blackberry!" we are just inventing an excuse for something that is still impolite.

Of course something important can come up - and that is what we have cell phones for. But they all have very nifty programming that lets you divide people into "groups" - and the only ones getting through during a meeting of any kind should be the life-and-death calls. "Your child is in hospital ..."

I also share your feeling of something shifting and changing. My own author-plans blew up around my ears in spring in a matter of 2 weeks and I went from hopeful nonfiction- and fiction author with several contracts for 09/10 under her belt to scratching at publishing houses doors. You swallow all sorts of stuff then, endure all sorts of odd behavior, because you want your book projects to actually go somewhere.
A friend who works in a big publishing house keeps calling me and shaking me up, saying: "You come from publishing, you know what it is like! The louder you bang your drum, the more self-assured and bitchy you are, the more the publishing house people will treat you like a great prospect. If you are polite and friendly, you will never go anywhere."

I find it very hard to act according to that advice. Incidentally, I also lost my mother last summer, to a very aggressive cancer. I was in the middle of a tight deadline for a book, and I finished it on time despite the turmoil, and even turned around and researched and wrote the next one that was scheduled. Not really looking up, just working on two projects that I loved a lot and wanted to succeed.
Now I feel increasingly silly and angry that the nonfiction and how-to-publishing houses here are cutting down imprints and book series drastically, and I am the one that keeps getting kicked out although I write and research well, I bring in experience, I am professional and pleasant to work with (I come from publishing, I am not an author who hangs sobbing on every comma or throws up a stink when they choose an ugly cover for the book).
You put your grief, your trauma of witnessing her fight and die in ICU for 2 days, all on hold because your managed to get a string of publishing contracts. And increasingly, you watch that weird "dance" in publishing currently, and you think: "uhm, hello??"
I think experiences like a mom's death shake you up. And while they pull out the rug from beneath your feet, they also put things in perspective. Yes, that woman is maybe important and could help your book. But if she treats you like she did, you have every right to poke fun at her (I love Robyn's idea) or ignore her in turn, I think.

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