Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Cristina T.OKeeffe on March 19, 2010 at 12:24pm

I think there is a tremendous dilemma as mother's / writers to share these stories with our children. I find them beautiful and interesting in their own right - they give us a sense of what was important from another time. I try to view them as historical and extract what I can from there. But as Allyson is telling us truthfully, the message is certainly not the one we are raising our daughters to buy into. So how do you resolve it? I guess for me, a story is just a story and I try to relay that to my kids. And try to extract the positive messages in that story which do exist: jealousy is bad/wrong and leads you to do bad things / hurt innocent people. Don't eat something a stranger gives you! People who may look different (the dwarves to Snow White and Snow White to the dwarves) can be your friends. I know Disney Princesses are especially problematic but I try to emphasize that they are loved and we love them really because they are always so good and kind, not just because they are "lovely". I think the real danger is that we NOTICE how messed up Snow White is because it is dated, but what about all the messages from TV / film that we aren't necessarily catching. And not just the ones directed to our children. And not just the ones on TV. We will spend our lives fighting messages - someone stealing in the supermarket, an older child cursing on the playground, an adult telling an off-color joke. As parents and people, we are always struggling to find good, moral values amid a sea of inconsistency, strangeness and misinformation. Snow White is just the tip of the iceberg...

Permalink Reply by Alexandra Pell on March 19, 2010 at 6:45pm

I think fairy tales in general are utterly devoid of any redeeming qualities when it comes to morality, but that's coming from a 20-something. Kids don't take the same messages from them that we adults do (necessarily). I remember reading the original version of The Little Mermaid for the first time and being horrified, but I also remember how I interpreted the basic message of the story as a little girl: follow your dreams. So I think that some of the nuances that deeply upset adults are not necessarily things that children would notice. Obvious things upset me as a child -- Bambi's mom dying, the scene when the daddy lion dies in the lion king. But I didn't notice moral/philosophical nuance. I didn't even have any clue what nuance might mean.

Permalink Reply by Kelli Swearingen on March 19, 2010 at 7:51pm

If you look up the real versions of fairy tales, such as snow white, sleeping beauty, the ones that have been given a happy ending by disney, you'd be in even more shock. They're all geared towards violence towards women. Not so much different from the modern take on them, in that the women still really don't have control over their destinies. Sleeping Beauty was originally raped by a married king and served her children as food after the Queen realized that Sleeping Beauty had "slept" with her husband. Never mind that the king raped her while she was asleep. I remember thinking as a little girl too that these stories were saying you can do anything, but now that I'm older I see the message is totally opposite. I have a l boy but I haven't ever allowed him to watch those movies. I know some people think it's a little extreme but my thinking is if a cartoon movie is going to distort history (Pocahontas in particular) they aren't going to be very helpful in the long run. I realize it's a retelling of a major part of our history,as is Columbus "discovering" North America but I just can't abide by the outright lying. Maybe I'm crushing imagination, but then again kids did just fine without movies and television long before they were ever invented. I also think that those are detrimental to both boys and girls. I mean if you think about it, what is Snow White telling little boys? That you need to marry someone pretty and older women are undesirable and jealous to boot. Kids pick up on it,even though they may not be able to verbalize it. So yeah you can count me in as another mom horrified by fairy tales. Sorry I went on too long, I just find it awesome that someone else feels the same way about those stories.

Permalink Reply by Tania Pryputniewicz on March 21, 2010 at 11:26pm

I think this is an excellent topic...and I don't find myself having an easy yes/no answer. I think as my daughter grows towards adolescence, my desire to shield and guide her remains in place as protective as ever, but I also have been thinking about how fairytales (and here I mean the originals--Grimm's, or say take Beauty and The Beast and look at Perrault's version or the French--is it Roman a la Rose? or take a look at Coctea's black and white film version ) where you have many aspects of the psyche being considered in an archetypal way, and I think of how as a thoroughly confused teenager, I recognized something I couldn't name, that mirrored a piece of reality, of my experience as a female. I don't think the fairytales made me long to live in them as the heroine, but more that the disturbing unpleasant events that befell that heroine could be survived, withstood. That was crucial to my own process of growth, and I think at some point I would want my children, my boys as well as my girl, to consider thinking about archetypes and then thinking about their own choices and struggles. I agree with the comment concerning TV and well, even magazine glitz and ads...thinking always about what those inundating images convey to our children.

Permalink Reply by allyson lang on March 22, 2010 at 9:39am

Thanks ladies. I suppose my true horror is in that they are read, without hesitation, to very young children. My girls had not heard of Snow White or Cinderella before kindergarten, but there they were on the first day of school, a Cinderella backpack on the girl right next to my daughter in line. They've now seen them all as these are the books the girls in class bring on their book day, all the Disney covers of the old fairy tales. There are several issues, one being that these children are being raised on the Disney version of the old classics, but then two, that these stories are being read to boys and girls without thought to the message being delivered. And the messages are truly detrimental to both boys and girls, archaic and often creepy. This falls into the category, in my mind, of "do you really believe this is best for your child?". I am shocked that a mother, in 2010, could read one of these to their children and not find the subject matter truly shocking. Now, as to what they see on tv and in magazines, grrr, I can't begin to combat that here. As we did with Snow White, we focus on the hilarity and try to move on. And thankfully, my girls found Snow White to be just that, hilarious.

Permalink Reply by Ami Hanna on March 28, 2010 at 7:15pm

Allyson, I clicked on your link to your blog and it says it doesn't exist. Is this the correct address? I am very interested in this topic. My first reaction at a response it to say, if you don't like the old "myths", create new ones. We live in a time period where gender roles are shifting drastically. The old paradigms are melting, and the new maps are not entirely explored. Personally, I want to read stories to my daughter about powerful "warrior" woman. Not in the "battling with swords Amazonian" kind of way, but in the "fight to uphold what is right and be compassionate towards those that are misunderstood or misrepresented" kind of a way. I want to read a hero's journey taken by a female, not a man taking the journey to save the female. Sorry, but I don't need anyone, man OR woman, to save me. Help and inspiration is always appreciated along my path as a female hero, thus, what a better forum to find other female heroes? I always loved the Rocky and Bullwinkle Fractured Fairy tales. Roald Dahl also has a book of poetry that explores the concept of the fractured fairy tales that IS something I read to my daughter.

Permalink Reply by Erin Whalen on March 29, 2010 at 11:43am

"If you don't like the old "myths," create new ones." -- YES! I agree completely. And since we're writers, who better than us to do the job?

Permalink Reply by Erin Whalen on March 29, 2010 at 11:41am

While I agree that the sexist message in most traditional fairy tales is awful, I do think they offer valuable teaching moments and that rather than ignoring them and pretending they don't exist (and then being horrified when our children come face to face with them in the form of all the ubiquitous Disney Princess paraphernalia out there) we can get a lot of value out of talking about the stories in their different versions (Grimms vs. Disney vs. more modern, female-friendly tellings) and discussing the differences. And then maybe showing them an episode or two of Xena, Warrior Princess to show them a kick-ass princess worthy of emulating.

Sort of kidding on that last one, but not really... ;-)

Permalink Reply by allyson lang on March 30, 2010 at 7:59am

I spent almost five years ignoring them and found, quickly, that idea was not going to work. Best to combat the stereotypes with critical thought as they were getting the Cinderella message, unedited, at school. And so we read beautifully illustrated versions of these stories with pauses and chances to talk and understand. When the Prince asked Snow White to marry him one of my girls laughed and said "What! He doesn't even know her!". I could not have been more proud. Watch any episode of Bride television and find out quickly that the saving idea is still alive and well, and that amazes me. As to my blog, I have no idea what the problem is. Let's try again, www.northsidefour.blogspot.com. Or search northsidefour, that usually finds it.

Now, I would LOVE to write a story about a girl who wears colors other than pink and does not need to be saved, at all. The scary thing is that it's been done, Beverly Cleary wrote wonderful books for girls, but those are not the ones girls choose. I work in a library and the girls want princesses and fairy tales and it is really hard, a struggle, to try to get them to try anything else. If this is what they have been read from the beginning, it's a difficult pattern to break.

Permalink Reply by Kelli Swearingen on March 30, 2010 at 4:45pm

"Now, I would LOVE to write a story about a girl who wears colors other than pink and does not need to be saved, at all. The scary thing is that it's been done, Beverly Cleary wrote wonderful books for girls, but those are not the ones girls choose. I work in a library and the girls want princesses and fairy tales and it is really hard, a struggle, to try to get them to try anything else. If this is what they have been read from the beginning, it's a difficult pattern to break."


I work in a library too and I know exactly where you are coming from! I hate it when I'm asked what would you recommend for my daughter and I throw some names out there and they end up looking at me like I'm speaking an alien language. I feel like why are you asking if you know already you want pretty princess crap?

Permalink Reply by Erin Whalen on March 30, 2010 at 10:45am

Just came across this link that I thought might be (darkly) appropriate for this discussion:

http://www.nonsolokawaii.com/principesse-disney-dark/

A look at what happens when good little Disney princesses go very, very BAD.

Permalink Reply by Sarah Pinneo on April 1, 2010 at 10:43am

Has anyone read
The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales ...

This book utterly changed my thinking about fairy tales, and what children take away from them. His is a psychological view of the tales, and a very close reading. One of his theses is that children (above toddler age) are very aware of dark ideas, and when adults make everything upbeat and happy they disbelieve it.

After I read this book, I went to an Alice Hoffman book event for "The Story Sisters." She spoke about the darkness of fairy tales (which weaves through her latest novel) and said that as a child they spoke to her because they seemed "truer" than the other stories she was offered.

Maybe Ms. Hoffman and Mr. Bettelheim are in cahoots... ;-)

S.

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